{"id":8225,"date":"2010-02-15T12:20:01","date_gmt":"2010-02-15T16:20:01","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/fryeblog.blog.lib.mcmaster.ca\/?p=8225"},"modified":"2010-02-15T12:20:01","modified_gmt":"2010-02-15T16:20:01","slug":"archetype-spotting","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/","title":{"rendered":"Archetype Spotting"},"content":{"rendered":"

 <\/p>\n

\"chickenroad6\"<\/a><\/p>\n

Responding to Jonathan Allan<\/a> and Clayton Chrusch<\/a><\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n

A footnote to \u201carchetype spotting\u201d: I think Frye refers to this procedure only once in his published writings\u2013\u2013in his entry on \u201carchetype\u201d for the Harper Handbook to Literature<\/em>. There he says,<\/p>\n

Lycidas<\/em> contains a reference to \u201cthat sanguine flower inscrib\u2019d with woe\u201d [l. 106], the hyacinth, thought to have obtained red markings resembling the Greek word ai<\/em> (\u201calas\u201d), when Hyacinthus was accidentally killed by Apollo. Milton could of course just as easily have left out this line: the fact that he included it emphasizes the conventionalizing element in the poem, but criticism that takes account of archetypes is not mere \u201cspotting\u201d of such an image. The critical question concerns the context: what does such an image mean by being where it is? (CW 18, 361).<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

(In his 1963 essay \u201cLiterary Criticism\u201d Frye does speak of theme spotting. [CW 27, 128])<\/p>\n

But in his notebooks Frye refers to the practice of \u201carchetype spotting on several occasions:<\/p>\n

Some fallacies in the archetypal approach beside the historical one: the counting one (if there are a lot of archetypes it\u2019s a good poem), the spotting one, & others. (CW 23, 111)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I need more theory to connect these examples: otherwise it\u2019s just archetype-spotting. <\/strong>(CW 5, 129)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The primary area of communication is conscious: it isn\u2019t a case of deep calling to deep [Psalm 42:7]. If half the world uses an archetype & the other half doesn\u2019t, it\u2019s clear that it can mean something to that other half. The mystique of the unconscious has bedevilled myth critics. If you find fragments of a huge myth in primitive times, the process that put it all together is most likely to be in Shakespeare or Wagner or someone producing a waking dream for conscious minds [Plato, Sophist<\/em>, 266c]. Such a writer would actualize what is potential in the archaic mythology. People resist this, because a poet\u2019s consciousness may get self-conscious, turn coy or cute and go in for archetype-spotting. The poet (modern) is in the position of a medieval dog hitched to a mandrake root: it doesn\u2019t matter so much if he goes mad, but the root he\u2019s pulling is not just his own tail. (CW 5, 130)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The sense of unreality I feel about this book focused originally on the thinness of literary allusions: even things as deep in me as Shakespeare weren\u2019t getting in. Then there was a sense of too much archetype-spotting, in contrast to real argument. That extended to too much kerygma spotting in 4. Finally I\u2019m back to the Introduction, where I don\u2019t even repeat my original confidence in the Bible as the only sacred book with a literary shape. Put that back in, you stupid bastard. [See WP<\/em>, xviii, xx.] (CW 5, 369)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Many years ago young Woodberry [J.C. (Jack) Woodbury, a student at Toronto 1951\u201354], when a student of mine, spoke of the triviality of \u201carchetype-spotting,\u201d and I\u2019ve always tried to recognize that. (CW 6, 564\u20135)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Every poem is \u201cunique,\u201d in the soft-headed phrase, and \u201carchetype spotting\u201d is a facile and futile procedure; but the traditions and conventions of poetry make a shape and a meaning. They move toward a future (emergence of primary concerns), and they expand into a wider present. (CW 6, 641)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The value of the book will be in this deductive expounding of the myth, not in spotting the archetypes around the compass. (CW 9, 263)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Here we see that Frye\u2019s considers \u201carchetype spotting\u201d to be facile enterprise, and he warns against substituting it for argument. Having said this however, we need to remind ourselves that Frye did engage in a good bit of archetype spotting himself, especially when he was making notes on the texts he was reading. In Notebook 7, for example, he does engage in some rather extensive archetype spotting in Frobenius<\/a>, Silberer<\/a>, and Jung<\/a> (CW 23, 8\u201315). The same is true of his Notes on Romance<\/a><\/em> (in the weblog Library). Finally, the margins of the books in Frye\u2019s personal library are filled with hundreds of notations about this or that archetype. A sample of these can be found in \u201cAnnotations in Frye\u2019s Books<\/a>,\u201d also in the weblog Library. To speak about an archetype in a literary or any other work, you must of course first be able to spot it. Frye\u2019s point is that if you do only this, then you\u2019ve not made much of a contribution to critical understanding. It\u2019s a procedure that can produce trivial observations, if they are not seen in some wider context of function, structure, and meaning.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

  Responding to Jonathan Allan and Clayton Chrusch A footnote to \u201carchetype spotting\u201d: I think Frye refers to this procedure only once in his published writings\u2013\u2013in his entry on \u201carchetype\u201d for the Harper Handbook to Literature. There he says, Lycidas contains a reference to \u201cthat sanguine flower inscrib\u2019d with woe\u201d [l. 106], the hyacinth, thought […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":24,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","_links_to":"","_links_to_target":""},"categories":[8,16],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-8225","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-archetype","category-bob-denham"],"yoast_head":"\nArchetype Spotting - The Educated Imagination<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Archetype Spotting - The Educated Imagination\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"  Responding to Jonathan Allan and Clayton Chrusch A footnote to \u201carchetype spotting\u201d: I think Frye refers to this procedure only once in his published writings\u2013\u2013in his entry on \u201carchetype\u201d for the Harper Handbook to Literature. There he says, Lycidas contains a reference to \u201cthat sanguine flower inscrib\u2019d with woe\u201d [l. 106], the hyacinth, thought […]\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"The Educated Imagination\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2010-02-15T16:20:01+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"400\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"402\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Bob Denham\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Bob Denham\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"4 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\/\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Bob Denham\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#\/schema\/person\/f0d6833dfde3f2793ecbbc6aacd83812\"},\"headline\":\"Archetype Spotting\",\"datePublished\":\"2010-02-15T16:20:01+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/\"},\"wordCount\":755,\"commentCount\":1,\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg\",\"articleSection\":[\"Archetype\",\"Bob Denham\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/\",\"name\":\"Archetype Spotting - The Educated Imagination\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#website\"},\"primaryImageOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg\",\"datePublished\":\"2010-02-15T16:20:01+00:00\",\"author\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#\/schema\/person\/f0d6833dfde3f2793ecbbc6aacd83812\"},\"breadcrumb\":{\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#breadcrumb\"},\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"ReadAction\",\"target\":[\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage\",\"url\":\"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg\",\"contentUrl\":\"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg\"},{\"@type\":\"BreadcrumbList\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#breadcrumb\",\"itemListElement\":[{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":1,\"name\":\"Home\",\"item\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/\"},{\"@type\":\"ListItem\",\"position\":2,\"name\":\"Archetype Spotting\"}]},{\"@type\":\"WebSite\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#website\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/\",\"name\":\"The Educated Imagination\",\"description\":\"A Website Dedicated to Northrop Frye\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"SearchAction\",\"target\":{\"@type\":\"EntryPoint\",\"urlTemplate\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/?s={search_term_string}\"},\"query-input\":{\"@type\":\"PropertyValueSpecification\",\"valueRequired\":true,\"valueName\":\"search_term_string\"}}],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\"},{\"@type\":\"Person\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#\/schema\/person\/f0d6833dfde3f2793ecbbc6aacd83812\",\"name\":\"Bob Denham\",\"image\":{\"@type\":\"ImageObject\",\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"@id\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/2e142dc4b6eec3365c24a599621bb9d757dd5f86d31eb62d98586fead4050d33?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"url\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/2e142dc4b6eec3365c24a599621bb9d757dd5f86d31eb62d98586fead4050d33?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"contentUrl\":\"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/2e142dc4b6eec3365c24a599621bb9d757dd5f86d31eb62d98586fead4050d33?s=96&d=mm&r=g\",\"caption\":\"Bob Denham\"},\"url\":\"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/author\/denham\/\"}]}<\/script>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Archetype Spotting - The Educated Imagination","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Archetype Spotting - The Educated Imagination","og_description":"  Responding to Jonathan Allan and Clayton Chrusch A footnote to \u201carchetype spotting\u201d: I think Frye refers to this procedure only once in his published writings\u2013\u2013in his entry on \u201carchetype\u201d for the Harper Handbook to Literature. There he says, Lycidas contains a reference to \u201cthat sanguine flower inscrib\u2019d with woe\u201d [l. 106], the hyacinth, thought […]","og_url":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/","og_site_name":"The Educated Imagination","article_published_time":"2010-02-15T16:20:01+00:00","og_image":[{"width":400,"height":402,"url":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg","type":"image\/jpeg"}],"author":"Bob Denham","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","twitter_misc":{"Written by":"Bob Denham","Est. reading time":"4 minutes"},"schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"Article","@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#article","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/"},"author":{"name":"Bob Denham","@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#\/schema\/person\/f0d6833dfde3f2793ecbbc6aacd83812"},"headline":"Archetype Spotting","datePublished":"2010-02-15T16:20:01+00:00","mainEntityOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/"},"wordCount":755,"commentCount":1,"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg","articleSection":["Archetype","Bob Denham"],"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"CommentAction","name":"Comment","target":["https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#respond"]}]},{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/","url":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/","name":"Archetype Spotting - The Educated Imagination","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#website"},"primaryImageOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg","datePublished":"2010-02-15T16:20:01+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#\/schema\/person\/f0d6833dfde3f2793ecbbc6aacd83812"},"breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/"]}]},{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#primaryimage","url":"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg","contentUrl":"http:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/4\/2010\/02\/chickenroad6.jpg"},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/2010\/02\/15\/archetype-spotting\/#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Archetype Spotting"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#website","url":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/","name":"The Educated Imagination","description":"A Website Dedicated to Northrop Frye","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/#\/schema\/person\/f0d6833dfde3f2793ecbbc6aacd83812","name":"Bob Denham","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/2e142dc4b6eec3365c24a599621bb9d757dd5f86d31eb62d98586fead4050d33?s=96&d=mm&r=g","url":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/2e142dc4b6eec3365c24a599621bb9d757dd5f86d31eb62d98586fead4050d33?s=96&d=mm&r=g","contentUrl":"https:\/\/secure.gravatar.com\/avatar\/2e142dc4b6eec3365c24a599621bb9d757dd5f86d31eb62d98586fead4050d33?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Bob Denham"},"url":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/author\/denham\/"}]}},"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8225","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/24"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=8225"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/8225\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=8225"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=8225"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/macblog.mcmaster.ca\/fryeblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=8225"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}